H, we are on pretty much the same wavelength, it seems to me. I've gone so far as to think of myself as an equal opportunity misanthrope.

I can connect meaningfully with very few individuals, and race/ethnicity cannot be the main, or major, criterion.

This has nothing to do with fairness or equanimity--these are illusory concepts. It has to do with immaterial connection that satisfies me.

Maybe that's why we're all here on ED.

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28 May 21 | 10:32PM by Sawfish.

That's essentially how I feel, Sawfish. I see no reason to boast about race, culture, or skin color, as those things are not any individual's accomplishment. Sometimes I wonder if the modern desire to perfectly represent the supposed traits of one's race or culture is derived from insecurity. The younger Japanese-Americans in my family are becoming more and more obsessed with their "heritage", but the closer they reach the supposed Japanese archetype, the more artificial and timid they seem to me, as if they wish to escape from the ambiguity and freedom of individualism in favor of a perfectly planned-out drone-like existence.

One of the reasons I connect with CAS' fiction is precisely because he doesn't seem so desperately attached to his skin or culture, romanticizing (even darkly) the individual spirit of a character whether they are white, black, Arabic, Hyperborean, Poseidonisian, Martian, Antarean, etc. I'm sure if I was born on the most splendid alien planet, with walking trees and green-tinted skies and palaces shaped like seashells, I would still feel no special connection with my race or society, other than the fact that I was naturaly shaped by it to some extent.

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I think that it could happen that way, but you
> could always move to Hungary, because if it's as
> you say, you'll have next to zero chance to alter
> it. I mean, this to me makes sense because you'd
> have actual agency, whereas being a part of a
> whining, hopeless mass of embittered and
> emasculated drones will only cause you to lose
> respect.
>
> It's not a question of what's right or wrong, but
> what's possible and likely. You've got only one
> life (as near as I can tell) and you can spend it
> as Don Quixote, or his side-kick Sancho Panza.
>
> I realized this long ago and am in fact a very
> well-heeled Sancho Panza, with enough assets to
> buy my way into virtually any place I want.
>
> ...and I may yet do this, the point being that I'm
> able precisely because I did not spend the last 40
> years titling impotently at windmills, all the
> while making myself a laughing stock.
>

Yes, you have a great personal advantage in this, not being an idealist. My brother has a lot of your attitude, and he and I often clash, he telling me that I should stop fighting windmills. And it is right, for my own good I need to modulate my posture, and be less idealistic.

But even if a person is (overall) antiracist like you, or a "complete" antiracist like Hespire (if it is truly possible, having no racial preferences at all, from an aesthetic point of view), one should still be concerned about the stability of the society and country one lives in. Mass-immigration of un-adaptable clashing cultures will cause chafing, social chaos, economic problems, and may even lead to civil war. France, for example, fears an upcoming civil war between Muslims and Frenchmen.

... There I go again, fighting windmills. But, if no one cared about the larger social issues, everyone was a materialist egoist, then there is only the law of the jungle left (or succumbing under dictatorship). And that may not be preferable even for you, Sawfish. How far could you really run with your (digital) money? ... Still, I do admire your wisdom.

On the other hand, it doesn't require much wisdom. Most people function automatically like that, and couldn't care less for larger issues beyond their personal lives. It is the basic animal impulsion.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > I think that it could happen that way, but you
> > could always move to Hungary, because if it's
> as
> > you say, you'll have next to zero chance to
> alter
> > it. I mean, this to me makes sense because
> you'd
> > have actual agency, whereas being a part of a
> > whining, hopeless mass of embittered and
> > emasculated drones will only cause you to lose
> > respect.
> >
> > It's not a question of what's right or wrong,
> but
> > what's possible and likely. You've got only one
> > life (as near as I can tell) and you can spend
> it
> > as Don Quixote, or his side-kick Sancho Panza.
> >
> > I realized this long ago and am in fact a very
> > well-heeled Sancho Panza, with enough assets to
> > buy my way into virtually any place I want.
> >
> > ...and I may yet do this, the point being that
> I'm
> > able precisely because I did not spend the last
> 40
> > years titling impotently at windmills, all the
> > while making myself a laughing stock.
> >
>
> Yes, you have a great personal advantage in this,
> not being an idealist. My brother has a lot of
> your attitude, and he and I often clash, he
> telling me that I should stop fighting windmills.
> And it is right, for my own good I need to
> modulate my posture, and be less idealistic.
>
> But even if a person is (overall) antiracist like
> you, or a "complete" antiracist like Hespire (if
> it is truly possible, having no racial preferences
> at all, from an aesthetic point of view), one
> should still be concerned about the stability of
> the society and country one lives in.
> Mass-immigration of un-adaptable clashing cultures
> will cause chafing, social chaos, economic
> problems, and may even lead to civil war. France,
> for example, fears an upcoming civil war between
> Muslims and Frenchmen.
>
> ... There I go again, fighting windmills. But, if
> no one cared about the larger social issues,
> everyone was a materialist egoist, then there is
> only the law of the jungle left (or succumbing
> under dictatorship). And that may not be
> preferable even for you, Sawfish. How far could
> you really run with your (digital) money? ...
> Still, I do admire your wisdom.

Very well expressed, K.

Absolutely I empathize with your personal position. There is no doubt in my mind that genetic preferences, based in part on race, would tend to cause me to group and reproduce within certain limits, but the reality is that I live in a very cosmopolitan time/place and in truth the sexual imperative seeks availability and variety, at least for males.

So that deals with the reproductive part.

The other part--which might be spiritual--works against selection by race. I've been with too many people I really like, a lot, who are not Caucasian, and met too many Caucasians who are quite simply scum, for me to see race as a primary triage.

So simply and bluntly, instead of seeing the world primarily thru a racial lens, I see it primarily as divide along a scum/non-scum axis. I see race, too, but the scum/non-scum evaluation easily trumps it in importance.

I feel that I know what you mean when you talk about Hungary; I have a cousin who retired to Dubrovnik two years ago for almost the exact same reason. A well-ordered society of reasonably happy individuals who adhere to a similar cultural understanding is VERY attractive. If it's multi-racial, that's fine, but if not, that's also fine. There is no inherent advantage to unconditional diversity, no matter what the current common "wisdom" dictates. It needs to be a sort of positive diversity, and not one predicated on celebrating differences (and implied superiorities), squabbling over ethnic ownership of certain practices, and nursing sniveling and often imagined grievances.

If people can get past that, I can find a way to live with just about anybody.

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> On the other hand, it doesn't require much wisdom.
> Most people function automatically like that, and
> couldn't care less for larger issues beyond their
> personal lives. It is the basic animal impulsion.

I agree that there is definitely a need for a certain level of idealism, and it could be that I'm an embittered idealist at heart, driven by circumstance to apostasy.

But the current formula is working, and above all I'm a utilitarian in a very limited sense, limited to myself and those I care about.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's essentially how I feel, Sawfish. I see no
> reason to boast about race, culture, or skin
> color, as those things are not any individual's
> accomplishment. Sometimes I wonder if the modern
> desire to perfectly represent the supposed traits
> of one's race or culture is derived from
> insecurity.

This is a point I came to, also.

Me, Sawfish, can gain no meaningful support from attaching my identity to a given group or tradition, nor should I. Basically, I'm on my own, and when people deal with me, they are dealing with Sawfish, not a member of a specified group, with all the supposed generalizations that go with that group. My personal faults, my personal strengths.

So I've seen people of Greek ancestry take what for all the world seemed to me personal pride in the Parthenon.

Please! Give me a break! You had NOTHING to do, whatsoever, with the Parthenon! You'll have to stand/fall on your *own* accomplishments.

This takes nothing away from the Parthenon as a material (or intellectual or artistic) accomplishment, but really now: you had nothing to do with it.

> The younger Japanese-Americans in my
> family are becoming more and more obsessed with
> their "heritage", but the closer they reach the
> supposed Japanese archetype, the more artificial
> and timid they seem to me, as if they wish to
> escape from the ambiguity and freedom of
> individualism in favor of a perfectly planned-out
> drone-like existence.
>
> One of the reasons I connect with CAS' fiction is
> precisely because he doesn't seem so desperately
> attached to his skin or culture, romanticizing
> (even darkly) the individual spirit of a character
> whether they are white, black, Arabic,
> Hyperborean, Poseidonisian, Martian, Antarean,
> etc. I'm sure if I was born on the most splendid
> alien planet, with walking trees and green-tinted
> skies and palaces shaped like seashells, I would
> still feel no special connection with my race or
> society, other than the fact that I was naturaly
> shaped by it to some extent.

I would be The Monster of the Prophecy... :^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Knygatin Wrote:
> > --------------------------------------------------
> > > Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
> > > --------------------------------------------------
> > > The Residents are my favourite band ...
> > >
> >
> > I have come to a stage where I must also say the
> > same. Neil Young used to be my favorite rock
> > star. I first listened to The Residents in 1979 or
> > 1980, and did it partly out of youthful rebellion
> > because they were so weird. But after a few years
> > I rejected them, stopped listening, thinking it
> > was socially harmful. It took another 20 years
> > before I resumed listening to them again. This
> > music, for me, has earlier not been about pleasant
> > harmonies, like say the melodies of John Denver;
> > but more comparable to the pleasure of scratching
> > an itch, or picking on the scab of a half-healed
> > wound. They have even been accused of earlier
> > being commies, but then they turned into avid
> > businessmen. Normally I am not very interested
> > in avant garde in art, but with The Residents it is
> > the creativity and rich imagination that
> > attracts me. And getting to know more about the men
> > behind the band, my sympathies have grown,
> > consequently the weirdness has retracted into the background
> > and I hear overall simply great music.
>
> Interesting description of their artistic
> apotheosis, as you have evolved to judge their
> work.
>
> At some point I'll have to give them another try.
> There are some artists who, by the very nature of
> their work, seem to evoke multiple responses in
> their "audience", and these responsess may be more
> commonly associated with a completely different
> *form*: e.g., Goya's Disasters of War evoke a
> feeling that one seldom, if ever, encounters in
> music, and yet it's possible for some very
> unconventional artists maybe sample it in their
> work. I have no examples of such, but it seems
> possible, at least.
>

Sawfish, have you seen Lars von Trier's film The Idiots? It is about abandoning all pretensions, and completely relaxing into idiocy, without the use of drugs or alcohol.

Lars von Trier later sought audience with Ingmar Bergman, because he wanted to be "accepted" by the Master, his idol. He only asked for a few minutes of conversation. But was denied. I can well understand that. It made him extremely disappointed and bitter.

Still, The Idiots is a hilariously disgusting film.

Knygatin Wrote:

...MUCH DELETED...

>
> Sawfish, have you seen Lars von Trier's film The
> Idiots? It is about abandoning all pretensions,
> and completely relaxing into idiocy, without the
> use of drugs or alcohol.
>
> Lars von Trier later sought audience with Ingmar
> Bergman, because he wanted to be "accepted" by the
> Master, his idol. He only asked for a few minutes
> of conversation. But was denied. I can well
> understand that. It made him extremely
> disappointed and bitter.
>
> Still, The Idiots is a hilariously disgusting
> film.

Thanks for this recommendation, Knygatin. I am beginning to understand your aesthetic views and share them to a large degree, so this is valuable.

Speaking of Von Trier, I first became aware of him with Zentropa. The backward counting sequences by the narrator became almost hypnotic; in fact, they were like a hypnotist planting a post-hypnotic suggestion. He was on to something dark (like Lynch is usually "on to something" dark) and this always appeals, so long as it's not celebrating degeneracy.

Hah! That's a good one I just learned about myself: I certainly don't mind a sort of tidy voyeurism, but draw the line at editorial comment that claims that the degeneracy I just viewed for a cheap thrill is somehow OK.

It's not, so far as I'm concerned.

FWIW, every time Von Trier is mentioned, I always add: "Did you see Melancholia?"

Did you? If so, how did you like it?

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have not seen Melancholia. I am not really a fan of von Trier, or of shaky hand-camera filming. But I have not seen enough of his work to be able to have a genuine opinion of it. I believe I have only seen The Idiots and Breaking the Waves, and that was many years ago.

The Idiots is about as degenerate as it gets.

I have avoided much of von Trier’s more recent output (everything after the sadistic, hyper-pretentious, overrated and downright despicable Dogville, to be precise), but I like much of his earlier work.

His horror-comedy hospital drama TV series The Kingdom is fantastic. Genuinely creepy, genuinely hilarious. A unique little gem.

Lynch lovers in particular may find The Element of Crime worthwhile, as it tells a relatively simple story using overcharged, dream-like symbolic images.

I think that as an artist von Trier went from being an imp to being a genuine devil, incapable of putting his contempt for his fellow human beings to productive artistic use anymore and simply setting out to annoy and torture them. I doubt he himself even gets any pleasure from his own work at this point in his nosedive of a career.

That being said, I have not seen Melancholia.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have not seen Melancholia. I am not really a fan
> of von Trier, or of shaky hand-camera filming.

None of that with Melancholia. Technically well produced without any visual distractions.

It is the unavoidable end of the world, and how this realization affects a very insulated (by wealth, privilege) group of people we have been introduced to in some depth.

To conceptualize it properly, these people have **never* had to do anything they don't want to, being able to avoid it by means of their wealth and status.

It's not a moral tale, but rather it shows how each of these people faces the end.

> But
> I have not seen enough of his work to be able to
> have a genuine opinion of it. I believe I have
> only seen The Idiots and Breaking the Waves, and
> that was many years ago.
>
> The Idiots is about as degenerate as it gets.

I'll make it a point to see it.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have avoided much of von Trier’s more recent
> output (everything after the sadistic,
> hyper-pretentious, overrated and downright
> despicable Dogville, to be precise), but I like
> much of his earlier work.
>
> His horror-comedy hospital drama TV series The
> Kingdom is fantastic. Genuinely creepy, genuinely
> hilarious. A unique little gem.
>
> Lynch lovers in particular may find The Element of
> Crime worthwhile, as it tells a relatively simple
> story using overcharged, dream-like symbolic
> images.
>
> I think that as an artist von Trier went from
> being an imp to being a genuine devil, incapable
> of putting his contempt for his fellow human
> beings to productive artistic use anymore and
> simply setting out to annoy and torture them. I
> doubt he himself even gets any pleasure from his
> own work at this point in his nosedive of a
> career.
>
> That being said, I have not seen Melancholia.

A few more films for my list.

Thanks, Avoosl!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Melancholia. Technically well
> produced without any visual distractions.
>
> It is the unavoidable end of the world, and how
> this realization affects a very insulated (by
> wealth, privilege) group of people we have been
> introduced to in some depth.
>
> To conceptualize it properly, these people have
> **never* had to do anything they don't want to,
> being able to avoid it by means of their wealth
> and status.
>
> It's not a moral tale, but rather it shows how
> each of these people faces the end.
>

Well, the premise sounds interesting. Leads my thoughts to a couple of literary works with similar concept, M. P. Shiel's The Purple Cloud and Jack Vance's The Last Castle. And also, to some degree W. H. Hodgson's The Night Land, although in that one they have prepared themselves behind the impenetrable walls of a large pyramid. And also, J. G. Ballard's Vermilion Sands (that you led me to, Sawfish. Thanks!). And Andrei Tarkovsky worked with similar things in some of his films. And Clark Ashton Smith, of course!

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Melancholia. Technically well
> > produced without any visual distractions.
> >
> > It is the unavoidable end of the world, and how
> > this realization affects a very insulated (by
> > wealth, privilege) group of people we have been
> > introduced to in some depth.
> >
> > To conceptualize it properly, these people have
> > **never* had to do anything they don't want to,
> > being able to avoid it by means of their wealth
> > and status.
> >
> > It's not a moral tale, but rather it shows how
> > each of these people faces the end.
> >
>
> Well, the premise sounds interesting. Leads my
> thoughts to a couple of literary works with
> similar concept, M. P. Shiel's The Purple Cloud
> and Jack Vance's The Last Castle. And also, to
> some degree W. H. Hodgson's The Night Land,
> although in that one they have prepared themselves
> behind the impenetrable walls of a large pyramid.
> And also, J. G. Ballard's Vermilion Sands (that
> you led me to, Sawfish. Thanks!). And Andrei
> Tarkovsky worked with similar things in some of
> his films. And Clark Ashton Smith, of course!

Here's the thing about Melancholia...

Set in modern contemporary N Europe, among a very select stratus of wealthy (very wealthy) professionals and other such.

No one knows until about 2 weeks left, and as it is related to them (thru media, just as one would expect) it's how they go about dealing with it, each in his/her own separate ways.

It's a lot like the roving killer asteroid stories the media love to jerk everyone's chain with, but this is way worse...

No time for an evolved decadence. It's right here, coming just before the planned trip to St. Tropez.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~