Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > The Idiots is about as degenerate as it gets.
>
> I'll make it a point to see it.

;D

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Here's the thing about Melancholia...
>
> Set in modern contemporary N Europe, among a very
> select stratus of wealthy (very wealthy)
> professionals and other such.
>
> No one knows until about 2 weeks left, and as it
> is related to them (thru media, just as one would
> expect) it's how they go about dealing with it,
> each in his/her own separate ways.
>
> It's a lot like the roving killer asteroid stories
> the media love to jerk everyone's chain with, but
> this is way worse...
>
> No time for an evolved decadence. It's right here,
> coming just before the planned trip to St. Tropez.

After some consideration, I have decided that I must see it.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Here's the thing about Melancholia...
> >
> > Set in modern contemporary N Europe, among a
> very
> > select stratus of wealthy (very wealthy)
> > professionals and other such.
> >
> > No one knows until about 2 weeks left, and as
> it
> > is related to them (thru media, just as one
> would
> > expect) it's how they go about dealing with it,
> > each in his/her own separate ways.
> >
> > It's a lot like the roving killer asteroid
> stories
> > the media love to jerk everyone's chain with,
> but
> > this is way worse...
> >
> > No time for an evolved decadence. It's right
> here,
> > coming just before the planned trip to St.
> Tropez.
>
> After some consideration, I have decided that I
> must see it.

HAH!

Seriously, if you *do* see it, let us know what you think about it.

No visual or narrative "funny stuff"; the filing style is a lot like a very competent quality director of big budget films--Peter Weir, maybe. The entire first half or 2/3rds of the film might be dull to many, since it is simply introducing you, in depth, to the three primary characters thru some significant social interactions and events.

So you get to really know them. While they are not sympathetic, they are not truly reprehensible--Keifer Sutherland comes closest, and even he is simply a privileged narcissist.

Then, after you know them quite well, the sh** hits the fan...

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

At this time in my life I have trouble connecting with Merritt because of a certain pulp haste and clumsiness that creeps in, when he runs out of inspiration, and because of some egregious ethnic stereotypes. I tried to re-read him and couldn't. I tried to re-read Dune by Herbert--whom I knew, he was a teacher of mine at Clarion, for a week--but found the dialogue oppressive. Nevertheless, it is chockful of great ideas and is a marvelous vision. I do appreciate it. I find Asimov both likable, now, in a way, but rather an awkward writer, in his fiction anyway. He got better in later works.

I still connect very well with the best of Jack Vance, his Dying Earth stories, his Lyonesse tales, his classic sf adventure like The Demon Princes...I knew him too, corresponded with him, saw him at conventions...quite a character. Sadly, rather racist though. But that only shows in one of his books. HPL--well, we know his issues with that, but L Sprague de Camp said that HPL was changing his mind about race, letting racism go, as he got older. If he'd only lived longer...

I love Machen and most of his contemporaries. I have trouble with many modern horror and fantasy writers. Most of them seem sloppy, overly concerned with a kind of social faddishness (and I'm a progressive, too), and they seem like they spend more time on facebook and twitter and instagram than writing novels. They watched a lot of anime, which is good stuff but...you don't have to write novels that way. I don't choose to name any of them.

I like Tim Powers' fantasy novels a lot. He's a good friend of mine, though I don't agree with his politics or rather medieval theology.

Moorcock is very uneven. His Dancers at the End of Time books and his Elric books are mostly very good. And certain other works. But some of his pulp novels--they just are--can be rather sloppily. He once told me that he "writes on adrenaline" and that kind of thing can be inspired or just hasty. But when he's good he's good. His novel Behold the Man is a great science fiction classic.

John Shirley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> At this time in my life I have trouble connecting
> with Merritt because of a certain pulp haste and
> clumsiness that creeps in, when he runs out of
> inspiration, and because of some egregious ethnic
> stereotypes. I tried to re-read him and couldn't.
> I tried to re-read Dune by Herbert--whom I knew,
> he was a teacher of mine at Clarion, for a
> week--but found the dialogue oppressive.
> Nevertheless, it is chockful of great ideas and is
> a marvelous vision. I do appreciate it. I find
> Asimov both likable, now, in a way, but rather an
> awkward writer, in his fiction anyway. He got
> better in later works.
>
> I still connect very well with the best of Jack
> Vance, his Dying Earth stories, his Lyonesse
> tales, his classic sf adventure like The Demon
> Princes...I knew him too, corresponded with him,
> saw him at conventions...quite a character. Sadly,
> rather racist though. But that only shows in one
> of his books. HPL--well, we know his issues with
> that, but L Sprague de Camp said that HPL was
> changing his mind about race, letting racism go,
> as he got older. If he'd only lived longer...
>
> I love Machen and most of his contemporaries. I
> have trouble with many modern horror and fantasy
> writers. Most of them seem sloppy, overly
> concerned with a kind of social faddishness (and
> I'm a progressive, too),

Quite all right, John. We pride ourselves on our tolerance here at ED, no matter what...

;^)

> and they seem like they
> spend more time on facebook and twitter and
> instagram than writing novels. They watched a lot
> of anime, which is good stuff but...you don't have
> to write novels that way. I don't choose to name
> any of them.
>
> I like Tim Powers' fantasy novels a lot. He's a
> good friend of mine, though I don't agree with his
> politics or rather medieval theology.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Welcome John, to the Eldritch Dark forum.

Very colorful cover on your new book. Looks exiting. It stands out!

One thing I regret today, is that I cannot to the same extent as in the good old days walk into a physical bookstore, pick up a new book and open it, to see if I connect.

And oh, if you are looking for an honest political debate, you have come to the right place. :) Although we have lately more or less silently agreed, that it is perhaps better to leave that be.

John Shirley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I still connect very well with the best of Jack
> Vance, ...I knew him too, corresponded with him,
> saw him at conventions ... . Sadly,
> rather racist though.

What are you referring to specifically?

I find a racist undertone in The Star King. And also in The Grey Prince (aka The Domains of Koryphon) which was written while he briefly lived in South Africa during the years of his travels. Although, over at the Jack Vance discussion forum, they would not officially agree with that.

John Shirley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I still connect very well with the best of Jack
> Vance, his Dying Earth stories, his Lyonesse
> tales, his classic sf adventure like The Demon
> Princes...I knew him too, corresponded with him,
> saw him at conventions...quite a character. Sadly,
> rather racist though. But that only shows in one
> of his books. HPL--well, we know his issues with
> that, but L Sprague de Camp said that HPL was
> changing his mind about race, letting racism go,
> as he got older. If he'd only lived longer...
>

The thing is that H. P. Lovecraft, C. A. Smith, and Jack Vance, had vast insights about life and the world, profoundly integrated in ways none of us can even begin to comprehend.

Boasting political correctness, shying away from the uncomfortable, and thinking shallow "good thoughts", does not make you wiser than them.

And L. Sprague de Camp was a moralizing, rigid thinker, ... he never knew Lovecraft, and merely speculated from how he wanted Lovecraft to be.

Knygatin Wrote:
> I find a racist undertone in The Star King. And
> also in The Grey Prince (aka The Domains of
> Koryphon) ....

Out of curiosity, what was your reaction to The Face?

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> > I find a racist undertone in The Star King. And
> > also in The Grey Prince (aka The Domains of
> > Koryphon) ....
>
> Out of curiosity, what was your reaction to The
> Face?

Everyone talks so highly of it! I must re-read it! I read it in the 80s, but am afraid I don't remember anything from it, except some tangled wormlike monstrosity at the very end!

I have read Star King a few times, but the other four only once. I want to re-read them when I find the time.

And what is your opinion of The Face?

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And what is your opinion of The Face?

Well, I enjoyed it. But, since you mention race, it did have "racist" undertones, if depictions of fictional races can be "racist". The main antagonist, the crimelord Lens Larque, is a "Darsh", a member a race of humans known for being comically low-class and grotesque. While tracking Lens Larque down, Gersen also encounters the Methlens, a dignified, hoity-toity and wealthy breed of human who regard not only the Darsh, but also Gersen's kind, as inferior breeds. This leads to some mixed feelings on Gersen's part, which culminates in the climax you seem to recall very vaguely.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > And what is your opinion of The Face?
>
> Well, I enjoyed it. But, since you mention race,
> it did have "racist" undertones, if depictions of
> fictional races can be "racist". The main
> antagonist, the crimelord Lens Larque, is a
> "Darsh", a member a race of humans known for being
> comically low-class and grotesque. While tracking
> Lens Larque down, Gersen also encounters the
> Methlens, a dignified, hoity-toity and wealthy
> breed of human who regard not only the Darsh, but
> also Gersen's kind, as inferior breeds. This
> leads to some mixed feelings on Gersen's part,
> which culminates in the climax you seem to recall
> very vaguely.

Thank you. I don't know why I can't remember the book better. The Star King immediately struck a cord with me, it had several visually memorable episodes, especially the dryads (which to me are like a sophisticated, intellectually developed and inspired variant of CAS's flower women). It is one of my favorite novels, has some transport "filler" passages, but ties up really well and neatly. I guess I am a "monster guy".

For a monster lover like me, there must be some bizarre monster* in every fantasy and science fiction book I read; otherwise I get severely disappointed. The Face assuredly at least had something of the kind by the very end.


* A monster for me can also mean anything that is monstrous, such as a futuristic machine or strange geological phenomena.

In my humble opinion, Vance’s best monster is King Kragen from The Blue World.

And if it’s craaazy monsters you want, you could do a lot worse than checking out Michael Shea’s fantasy books, such as Nifft the Lean and In Yana, the Touch of Undying.