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Re: Poetic Consciousness vs. Sociological Consciousness
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2021 12:58PM
Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Anyway, what say you to the idea of SC/PC
> coexisting within the same individual but being
> employed in differing situations, and that when
> inappropriately employed, that's where we object?

Yes, of course, it is all a matter of intelligence, maturity, and self-awareness, as to whether SC/PC are used in a positive way or not. I have worked with jobs that are considered social and caring professions, so that gives me a degree of "social consciousness", or humanitarian quality, depending on what Dale exactly means by SC. Same goes for someone working as a teacher.

Re: Poetic Consciousness vs. Sociological Consciousness
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2021 04:04PM
I'll try to post something here soon on this poetic consciousness vs. sociological consciousness thing, but it's a tool for discussion and can be refined -- or dropped -- by anyone, including me.

Re: Poetic Consciousness vs. Sociological Consciousness
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2021 04:51PM
Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > So for me, I'm more of a Maxfield Parrish
> > landscape guy, than a Palmer man. It's got to
> do
> > with a lack of the ability to distinguish the
> > aesthetically subtle.
> >
>
> I used to have a couple of Maxfield Parrish
> posters on my walls. Fantastic landscapes and
> trees.

And then, Knygatin, you go on to mention Dürer. There must be some "same wavelength" thing going on here because these two were very prominent in my own very limited awareness and investment when I began to branch out from comic art (not just comic books, but Hal Foster's Prince Valiant, etc.). I don't know that I'd ever spent more on anything than when I bought Coy Ludwig's big book on Parrish ($25); and I suppose two of the first posters I ever bought were Parrish's Lamp Seller of Baghdad and Dürer's famous hare.

Re: Poetic Consciousness vs. Sociological Consciousness
Posted by: Knygatin (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2021 05:31PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'll try to post something here soon on this
> poetic consciousness vs. sociological
> consciousness thing, but it's a tool for
> discussion and can be refined -- or dropped -- by
> anyone, including me.

No problem. I think we have discussed it enough. I think I fully understand what you mean by "sociological consciousness". It is all fine to be social and generous to others, but when it turns into a fixed idea it can become very limiting in intellectual outlook (as in socialism).

Re: Poetic Consciousness vs. Sociological Consciousness
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2021 05:42PM
When an individual truly thinks that before they can intuitively react to any given experience they need to weigh how and if it affects the rest of humanity, and especially as based on someone else's idea of what's socially correct, this makes for a miserable, miserable life.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Poetic Consciousness vs. Sociological Consciousness
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 5 September, 2021 11:11PM
For all my words below, I'm still groping. For what they may be worth, here are some relfections.


Poetic consciousness vs. sociological consciousness
5 Sept. 2021

Herewith an attempt to clarify how I understand these terms since I introduced them at Eldritch Dark some weeks ago.

“Consciousness” is not the same thing as “ideas.” Consciousness is the awareness that we experience.* “Ideas” are our notions about things of which we are aware. To be sure, absorbing from others, forming and holding ideas about things may affect our consciousness; if we habitually occupy our minds with certain ideas, we become more attuned to corresponding things.

For example, a young person might grow up with a spontaneous enjoyment of the beauty of certain plants. Then he goes to college and learns that these plants are not native to a region but were introduced by settlers who dispossessed earlier inhabitants. He might come to perceive the plants with distaste, losing his sense of their genuine beauty and forgetting that he used to enjoy them and also forgetting what changed his view of them (their association with unsavory history).

We are in a “participatory” relationship to that of which we are conscious, such as nature. We produce ideas when we think about nature, etc.

POETIC CONSCIOUSNESS has been the natural state of human beings throughout history, till very recently, when sociological consciousness developed. However hard life was for most people, they lived their lives rather than “performing” them.

While poetic consciousness pervades life, people typically tell stories about their own lives and other peoples’ lives – mostly people who are known to them, such as family members, neighbors, etc. People expect life to make some kind of sense, though it may be funny or painful, and even though people might feel that life is unfair. Whether one is happy or dissatisfied, one feels that much of life is out of one’s hands and in the hands of fate, the gods, God, the progressive onward push of nature, or the like -- but life is interesting and one has some freedom of action, and with it responsibility. Poetic consciousness typically deals with shame and honor, or iniquity and righteousness.

The discipline of sociology is not ruled out by poetic consciousness, but needs to be kept in its place.

SOCIOLOGICAL CONSCIOUSNESS (which might not be a good choice of term) is the characteristic type of awareness learned by people living in modern or so-called postmodern society. Anyone reading this little essay, including me the author, will tend to perceive things and to think about them in terms of numbers and abstractions. The typical procedure of dealing with difficulties of life is to look for social “root causes.” The typical mental procedure is reductive, to say something is really “nothing but” something else.

In sociological consciousness, one is to discover, or fashion, who one is according to some category or other proposed by current thought: for example, identify what your gender is using this menu of possibilities, etc. The weird preoccupation with numbers shows itself again and again, as when someone says “I’m 90% sure that….”

Under sociological consciousness, people often interpret life, including their own lives, in terms of popular psychology. They feel that they have gained understanding of themselves and others when they can apply terms such as manic, anal, ADHD, phobic, etc. They understand life largely in terms of therapies that help people to cope, adjust, etc. Thinking thus about their lives, they “recognize” the profiles that fit them, and then perform their lives rather than living them.

Oddly, though sociological consciousness refers, often inappropriately, to numbers, it is often in error about the numerical facts. Thus governments and journalism manufacture endless statistics, statements about trillions of dollars to be spent, and so on, and yet these numbers are often misunderstood or are phantasmal.

This often bogus “numericism” shows, for example, in diatribes about “inequity.”

Digression: To help you keep poetic consciousness and sociological consciousness distinct, you could use this mnemonic: iniquity vs. inequity.

Poetic consciousness typically recognizes the moral dimension of your life and my life, in which I am called to use my freedom rightly or lest I commit morally faulty behavior, which, to take an intense word, could be called iniquity.

Sociological consciousness is hardly concerned with, or aware of, objective right and wrong. It typically holds “morality” to be a nothing but “code” by which a social group exerts control over another group, i.e. maintains inequity.

But where poetic consciousness usually allows forgiveness or “payment” for wrongdoing, sociological consciousness often simply relegates offenders to a category of the condemned. End of digression.

Sociological consciousness tends to be anxious and irritable.

Where sociological consciousness prevails, people will tend not so much to exercise the freedom that they feel they have but may fret about restrictions due to “society” or some hated group that is to blame. It’s often not that they personally feel themselves to be un-free, but that, as they think, “people” or some category of people need greater freedom.

Sociological consciousness uses works of imagination -- poetry, art, music, etc. – to reinforce its ideas. For it, Heart of Darkness is not so much about the mystery of evil in the human heart as about colonialism, the ideology of regarding indigenous people as “savages” and “Other,” etc.

Sociological consciousness tends to a kind of totalitarianism, that is, the politicization of more or more of life till it is all absorbed thereby, as in Ibram Kendi’s idea that Christianity should be focused on (his) ideas of “social justice,” etc.

A personal note: I’m obvious more sympathetic to “poetic consciousness” than “sociological consciousness,” but the former is not “salvation.”

*“Ideas” as I am using the word here doesn’t refer to Plato’s concept of permanent higher realities that a human being might try to contemplate, but that exist on their own; Plato’s ideas belong to the realm of Being, but may be manifest in some degree in our experiential world of Becoming.

Re: Poetic Consciousness vs. Sociological Consciousness
Posted by: Kipling (IP Logged)
Date: 6 September, 2021 10:13AM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
--------------------------------------
>
>
>

>
>
> Sociological consciousness tends to a kind of totalitarianism, that is, the politicization of more and more of life till it is all absorbed thereby, as in Ibram Kendi’s idea that Christianity should be focused on (his) ideas of “social justice,” etc.

> *“Ideas” as I am using the word here doesn’t refer to Plato’s concept of permanent higher realities that a human being might try to contemplate, but that exist on their own;
> Plato’s ideas belong to the realm of Being, but may be manifest in some degree in our experiential world of Becoming.

The key work of Plato in connection with Sociological Consciousness is the GEORGIAS, a Socratic dialogue on the nature of rhetoric in which he debunks the ideas of the Sophists about oratory. Relevant to the "weird" reliance on numbers you pointed out so well, we can easily be lulled into a passive state of lethargy or even acquiescence by the dullness of statistics and of the entire shallow political and cultural scene.
Plato viewed devious oratory, calculated to make the good appear bad and vice versa, as "the source of all corruption".



[u][/u]

jkh

Re: Poetic Consciousness vs. Sociological Consciousness
Posted by: Kipling (IP Logged)
Date: 6 September, 2021 03:02PM
Spelled GORGIAS. Zzzzz. Available in Penguin Classics trans. Walter Hamilton.

jkh

Re: Poetic Consciousness vs. Sociological Consciousness
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 6 September, 2021 03:21PM
Yes, that's the one I have, and read a few years ago -- just the one time, so I'm "acquainted" with it, is all.

Re: Poetic Consciousness vs. Sociological Consciousness
Posted by: Sawfish (IP Logged)
Date: 6 September, 2021 05:24PM
Project Gutenberg, as well.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: Poetic Consciousness vs. Sociological Consciousness
Posted by: Kipling (IP Logged)
Date: 6 September, 2021 05:38PM
Yes, it's a fascinating work. Thanks for bringing the contrasting terms into clear focus. It is interesting that Ashton Smith, who admired Flaubert, Gautier, and the Symbolists, conversely reacted against the sociological consciousness of Stendahl, Zola, and de Maupassant. A vexing problem for the biographers!

jkh

Re: Poetic Consciousness vs. Sociological Consciousness
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 6 September, 2021 09:16PM
How was CAS able to read these writers? My sense is that he wouldn’t have been able to buy many books. (I wonder where the nearest good bookstore to him was.)

Re: Poetic Consciousness vs. Sociological Consciousness
Posted by: Hespire (IP Logged)
Date: 6 September, 2021 10:21PM
Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How was CAS able to read these writers? My sense
> is that he wouldn’t have been able to buy many
> books. (I wonder where the nearest good bookstore
> to him was.)


He's known to have visited his local library very often, and supposedly read every single book from its shelves. And memorized much of their contents. According to his friend Dr. Farmer, he had even read a little Tolkien and admired what he saw.

I've read somewhere that he owned many books in his cabin too, though I don't remember where I read this, nor do I have any idea how he got them. He owned every book written by Lafcadio Hearn, and the medieval travelogue of Sir John Mandeville with a cover he made himself (CAS was inspired enough by this book to write his very own chapter of Sir Mandeville's adventures), and many books of poems and symbolist fiction, plus non-fiction. CAS stated in a letter that he didn't own much weird fiction besides Lovecraft, Poe, and a few others.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 6 Sep 21 | 10:22PM by Hespire.

Re: Poetic Consciousness vs. Sociological Consciousness
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 6 September, 2021 11:44PM
It looks like the Auburn Public Library CAS would have known still stands on 175 Almond Street, a handsome Carnegie library resembling the Ashland, Oregon, public library as I knew it around 50 years ago. (The Ashland library has undergone extensive remodeling since then.).

Re: Poetic Consciousness vs. Sociological Consciousness
Posted by: Dale Nelson (IP Logged)
Date: 7 September, 2021 09:28AM
A nice picture here:

[en.wikipedia.org])

But hold on -- "Finally on August 10, 1971, ground was broken for a new building on 350 Nevada Street, its present location."

The old library building still stands, but I wonder what it's used for. Maybe I can find out. [Later: On Google Street View, I saw a sign: Carnegie Library Art Studio -- it's not clear if that refers to two separate facilities or if the "CAS library" now IS an art studio.]

Google Street View of the old Auburn public library (prepare to sigh wistfully -- it's lovely):

[www.instantstreetview.com]

Image from Dec. 2020. It looks like a pleasant neighborhood for a walk.


(Libraries used to be fine places for the experience of poetic consciousness, but, alas, are often tainted, not just by shelves of deleterious books, but by "progressive" staff under the sway of sociological consciousness.)



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 7 Sep 21 | 09:42AM by Dale Nelson.

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