Who would've thought that such policies or proposals would one day be offered seriously? And there is a case to be made for such a thing.

But criminality and foolishness may have consequences that surprise the sociologically-minded, with their assumption that one needs to identify the famous "root causes" and then spend public money on those roots & so end the problem. How often does that actually happen...?

By the way, here's not a "prophecy" but a guess: Look, in the next ten years, for the rise of figures to whom some adolescent subjects of "transgender" drugs and surgeries will turn for "restoration" of their bodies to their real sex. I wouldn't be surprised if quack doctors and magic healers will appear who claim they can more or less undo the damage these poor people had done to themselves. What got me thinking about this actually was the phenomenon, in postwar Germany, of various types of healers to whom people turned because they suffered from emotional and physical complaints connected with Nazification and the Allies' [i]de[i]Nazification. It seems that people sometimes not only didn't get the help they sought from doctors with ordinary qualifications, but avoided those doctors because they had been implicated in Nazi-era eugenics and so on. I could see a somewhat similar scenario developing in America and Europe. Sociological consciousness enables our present madness-of-crowds about "gender," and the Law of Unforeseen Consequences is likely to be proven again.

[www.amazon.com]

[cabinetmagazine.org]

Lest there be misunderstanding: I do believe that divine, miraculous healing can occur, perhaps especially in countries where there just is little or no access to advanced medicine, hospitalization, etc. I have been impressed by this two-volume work:

[www.amazon.com].

But that isn't the subject I mean to raise with this comment. Rather: sociological consciousness tends to generate the need for new solutions and cures to problems it itself tends to produce. Whether it gets them is another matter.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 14 Sep 21 | 10:18AM by Dale Nelson.

Quote:

DN
But that isn't the subject I mean to raise with this comment. Rather: sociological consciousness tends to generate the need for new solutions and cures to problems it itself tends to produce. Whether it gets them is another matter.

Take this one step further one step towards what many would call cynicism (it's relatively easy to reject cynicism without debate on the grounds that it's a form of distorted nihilism) but is, in fact, the simple recognition of default human behavioral response.

First, grant that humans have evolved to seeking advantage for themselves, and this can be an environmental advantage (shelter, agriculture), or over other humans (colonization, charismatic manipulation, etc.). It is the simple drive to attempt to prosper enough to survive and reproduce.

Suppose that an individual had spent vast amounts of time and money learning to identify and ameliorate the problems of the disadvantaged. Now one seeks a living. They mainly find it in either private humanitarian foundations or government social services.

Within the last 50 years this has also spread to education providers.

Now if your livelihood is to help others whom you've identified as worthy of assistance, what happens if you are successful--you do, in fact, help all or most of these disadvantaged to become self-reliant contributors to the social good?

You are basically out of a job--the one you've trained for, and spent lots of your own money to become credentialed. In fact, you do not advantage your own position by solving any of these problems; but you do advantage yourself to find yet more such problems for you to be paid to try to solve.

So basically, that's where we are now, and quite likely it will kill us, as a society.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What you describe would be one example of sociological consciousness; a costly one, I suppose, but not the worst.

Sociological consciousness perceives the world, including humans, as non-transcendent creatures whose "reality" is socially (and biologically) determined, but also sees that "determined" "reality" as something that qualified people can engineer through intimidation, education, taxation, regulation, "counseling," community organizing, mass meetings, popular entertainment, etc. Those who want to drive this "progressive" agenda have largely given up on persuading dissidents with respect and a willingness to leave them alone if they can't persuade them.

So "progress" continues, but as it does it generates new and expensive problems. In America, there's a bizarre convergence of extension of public benefits (funded by taxes and borrowing) + recruitment of new citizen-subjects through the border, people who will also be eligible for those benefits. (Perhaps "recruitment" is unfair. But this is, for many policymakers, a non-negotiable agenda item, and yet the American populace was never just asked: Do you want to admit X hundreds of thousands of immigrants from Latin America?--Vote up or down.)

But it's not just ideas about what's perceived that are involved. It's that the minds that set and enforce policy, etc. and their opponents largely see the phenomenal world in terms of social values, social problems, social justice, social categories, social resources, and so on. The problems are ones that can (it is assumed) basically be dealt with by spending money, an abstract social resource, or by not spending money -- depending on your politics. The Trump people and the Biden-Harris people agree about too much, much of the time. Their visions of the individual, community, society, etc. seem to be not too far apart.

So my concern is mostly with the relative few who have a more "poetic" consciousness of the human and the rest of the world -- a concern that, at least, these people should mostly be allowed to live their lives without the State breathing down their necks. Parents should not have to worry about the State regarding their children as truants if they are not subjected to a State agenda for education. And so on.

But as long as we regard ourselves as essentially animals, whose nature is find the meaning of our lives in, visible, political society, humans often will not flourish but will endure (or not) an increasingly spendthrift, intrusive, coercive society.

And lives will be ruined. Watch and see. It might not be reported much, but there will be, I suspect, numbers of people who will come to be dismayed by what they have had done to their bodies. Living according to sociological consciousness, they experienced what they call "gender" as a "social construction"; they experienced their feelings, imaginings, etc. according to a warped mode of perception that they thought was clearsighted. They honestly did not perceive the reality of sex but were estranged from a wholesome understanding thereof from early years. Ruined, they will turn to "society" (government agencies, lawyers to sue surgery providers, all that typical stuff) to punish the physicians and to repair them and, since they will not really be repaired and restored, will seek "healing" in strange ways.

Yes: you watch: I suspect that society is going to become more "spiritual," even "religious" or "magical" -- but it won't be in ways that I, a Christian, will welcome. See my earlier message about postwar Germany.

If you think "society" is irrational now, wait and see what's coming. This is a time of religious reformation, nothing less. Wokeism is a religion or a part of an emerging religion.



When problems of the spirit are seen as essentially social and amenable to social solutions, problems get worse and worse. But sociological consciousness banishes the spiritual. It may keep some of the language of man's spiritual nature, but it uses it metaphorically. In fact, there was a rich vocabulary of the human spirit that developed in Western civilization. But I suppose its real meaning is largely opaque to people in our time.

Poetic consciousness allows at least the possibility of a spiritual dimension in mankind -- of some sort. It might not adhere to a particular religion. Walter de la Mare possessed poetic consciousness though he lived in recent times, but I don't think he was a believer in a particular religion. I'm not sure he believed in God.

For those who seek to develop the connection with God created by authentic Baptism,* there can be a lot of un-learning to do, because the language needed for a restoration of right consciousness may have been debased through misuse and because our education is largely founded on false first principles (which may be basic "truths' of sociological consciousness). We can catch more and more of the real thing, learn better what the words really mean, if we read old books, etc. But repentance and faith rather than education, including self-education, will be necessary.

This is getting to be a long comment. Fortunately, this thread is distinct from others here at ED and nobody needs to read any of these remarks if he doesn't want to. I will stop editing this post and go for a walk and get branches over my head. ; )


*In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- not, e.g. the Parent, the Redeemer, and the Friend, or some other concocted formula that seeks to avoid so-called sexism.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 14 Sep 21 | 01:07PM by Dale Nelson.

Quote:

DN
I suspect, numbers of people who will come to be dismayed by what they have had done to their bodies. Living according to sociological consciousness, they experienced what they call "gender" as a "social construction"; they experienced their feelings, imaginings, etc. according to a warped mode of perception that they thought was clearsighted. They honestly did not perceive the reality of sex but were estranged from a wholesome understanding thereof from early years.

I agree that this could well happen--could be happening right now--but will be minimally reported simply because it casts doubt on the current gender fluidity trope now in vogue.

How would a researcher get funding? Propose a study that undermines the raison d'etre for various social aid groups?

Good luck with that!

Too, there's a serious logical fallacy practiced by the young, especially, who, casting about for a self-identity, find themselves uncomfortable (often momentarily--but they don't know this) with what they perceive to be the expected gender roles for each sex. And they attempt to do this--a meaningful evaluation of their comfort with their assigned role--while in the midst of adolescent transformation from child to adult.

And we as a society *ALLOW* them to do it without any actual guidance from traditionally oriented adults, instead passing this off to proxy "professionals" whose livelihood (and self-worth) depends on finding, and "helping" confused young adults.

And here's the central irony--which I've seen play out first hand among some of my daughter's school acquaintances as they re-assigned their own gender identification. In most cases it was young girls identifying as male and adopting a male name and often the male pronoun--and yet the reasonable observer would not recognize them as male.

They say they feel more comfortable as a male, and yet, at age 13 what could they possibly know of what a male might feel? Or be expected to do? They have a much better clam to knowing what a female feels like, and what is expected of them by society but virtually no actual knowledge--not even an inkling--of what the male is like.

And yet, with no knowledge whatsoever, they confidently claim to be male because it's a better fit for them, emotionally.

In truth, they are not comfortable with the perceived female role, but because they are so immature, they *assume* that the opposite--a male--is the proper fit.

To very many in society, they make themselves into a ludicrous non-entity at best, and a self-mutilating freak at worst. This then is their de facto "new identity" that they selected at great personal risk and sacrifice--and feeling the lack of general support from society, withdraw, embittered, to the near-exclusive company of others such as themselves.

Gooble-gobble...

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:

> They say they feel more comfortable as a male, and
> yet, at age 13 what could they possibly know of
> what a male might feel?

Even on the merely physiological level. All that money for hormones and surgeries upon surgeries, but no prostate glands. Similarly, men why try to "become" women will never know what a woman knows every month.

We may all be ready to let this thread alone for a while, at least, which is fine. I wanted to post something I ran across just now that might be helpful, in Iain McGilchrist's essay Ways of Attending (2019). He describes "attention" as "the way in which we relate to the world. And it doesn't just dictate the kind of relationship we have with whatever it is: it dictates what it is that we come to have a relationship with" (p. 13).

I might disagree with much that McGilchrist thinks -- I've spent only a few minutes with this booklet and am returning it to the library today. But I thought his remark about "attention" might help with what I've been getting at with regard to "consciousness."

Poetic consciousness, I believe, allows attention to, and so relationship with, a broader and deeper world than sociological consciousness does.

But modern society fosters sociological consciousness. It encourages us, trains us, to pay attention to certain things, have a relationship with certain things, while denying or not even perceiving other things, or only rarely. Poetic consciousness, I have said, has been the kind of awareness that has been "ordinary" for most people in most times and places.

They might have been hungrier, colder, more afflicted with illness than most of us are (although the degree of these negatives may be exaggerated for polemical purposes at times). But their worldview allowed, for example, more of the meaning of sexual difference, or more of the meaning of natural beauty, to come home to them, so that enjoyment of, and even the making of, poetry, melody, dance, religious ritual, etc. were normal to them. I suspect their lives were more permeated by beauty than modern people's often are even when the former didn't articulate that.

At any rate they were not thinking about politics or their "gender identities" all the time. Their bodies may have been susceptible to diseases that we don't have to worry about, but I don't have the sense that their spirits were as beset by psychological ills as those of modern people often are.

I'm not looking to revive the discussion, necessarily, at this point, but to leave this note here so that if someone sometime does want to pick it up, there might be a clarification ready to hand.

Quote:

DN
At any rate they were not thinking about politics or their "gender identities" all the time. Their bodies may have been susceptible to diseases that we don't have to worry about,[...]

And I'll again make the point the *precisely* because their "...bodies [were] susceptible to diseases we don't have to worry about", and other daily concerns relating to simple existence, continued survival, and that we no longer have these with which to occupy our mental energies, it is WHY some choose to stew impotently about their gender, or their self-identity.

You've really got to be in a secure situation, with a lot of free time on your hands, to worry this stuff, like a dog with an old houseslipper.

The kind of stuff we're talking about is unique to wealthy and decadent societies, I think.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:

> You've really got to be in a secure situation,
> with a lot of free time on your hands, to worry
> this stuff, like a dog with an old houseslipper.
>
> The kind of stuff we're talking about is unique to
> wealthy and decadent societies, I think.


(chuckling) Ain't it the truth! I have often said that we're a decadent society when my wife mentions something in the news. (Her job obliges her to spend a lot of time with media.)

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Who would've thought that such policies or
> proposals would one day be offered seriously? And
> there is a case to be made for such a thing.
>
> But criminality and foolishness may have
> consequences that surprise the
> sociologically-minded, with their assumption that
> one needs to identify the famous "root causes" and
> then spend public money on those roots & so end
> the problem. How often does that actually
> happen...?
>
> By the way, here's not a "prophecy" but a guess:
> Look, in the next ten years, for the rise of
> figures to whom some adolescent subjects of
> "transgender" drugs and surgeries will turn for
> "restoration" of their bodies to their real sex.
> I wouldn't be surprised if quack doctors and magic
> healers will appear who claim they can more or
> less undo the damage these poor people had done to
> themselves. What got me thinking about this
> actually was the phenomenon, in postwar Germany,
> of various types of healers to whom people turned
> because they suffered from emotional and physical
> complaints connected with Nazification and the
> Allies' deNazification. It seems that people
> sometimes not only didn't get the help they sought
> from doctors with ordinary qualifications, but
> avoided those doctors because they had been
> implicated in Nazi-era eugenics and so on. I could
> see a somewhat similar scenario developing in
> America and Europe. Sociological consciousness
> enables our present madness-of-crowds about
> "gender," and the Law of Unforeseen Consequences
> is likely to be proven again.
>
> [www.amazon.com]-
> Doctors-Post-WWII-ebook/dp/B07WZ7TSKV
>
> [cabinetmagazine.org]
> eptember_2021.php
>
> Lest there be misunderstanding: I do believe that
> divine, miraculous healing can occur, perhaps
> especially in countries where there just is little
> or no access to advanced medicine,
> hospitalization, etc. I have been impressed by
> this two-volume work:
>
> [www.amazon.com]
> stament-Accounts/dp/0801039525#:~:text=Keener%20de
> votes%20several%20chapters%20to%20David%20Hume%27s
> %20classic,his%20premise.%20Thus%2C%20his%20argume
> nt%20was%20not%20valid.
>
> But that isn't the subject I mean to raise with
> this comment. Rather: sociological consciousness
> tends to generate the need for new solutions and
> cures to problems it itself tends to produce.
> Whether it gets them is another matter.


Having now read some of this ludicrous screed, I have come to realize you're a religious nutbag. Forget I entered the conversation, dipshits.

Radovarl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dale Nelson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Who would've thought that such policies or
> > proposals would one day be offered seriously?
> And
> > there is a case to be made for such a thing.
> >
> > But criminality and foolishness may have
> > consequences that surprise the
> > sociologically-minded, with their assumption
> that
> > one needs to identify the famous "root causes"
> and
> > then spend public money on those roots & so end
> > the problem. How often does that actually
> > happen...?
> >
> > By the way, here's not a "prophecy" but a
> guess:
> > Look, in the next ten years, for the rise of
> > figures to whom some adolescent subjects of
> > "transgender" drugs and surgeries will turn for
> > "restoration" of their bodies to their real sex.
>
> > I wouldn't be surprised if quack doctors and
> magic
> > healers will appear who claim they can more or
> > less undo the damage these poor people had done
> to
> > themselves. What got me thinking about this
> > actually was the phenomenon, in postwar
> Germany,
> > of various types of healers to whom people
> turned
> > because they suffered from emotional and
> physical
> > complaints connected with Nazification and the
> > Allies' deNazification. It seems that people
> > sometimes not only didn't get the help they
> sought
> > from doctors with ordinary qualifications, but
> > avoided those doctors because they had been
> > implicated in Nazi-era eugenics and so on. I
> could
> > see a somewhat similar scenario developing in
> > America and Europe. Sociological consciousness
> > enables our present madness-of-crowds about
> > "gender," and the Law of Unforeseen
> Consequences
> > is likely to be proven again.
> >
> >
> [www.amazon.com]-
>
> > Doctors-Post-WWII-ebook/dp/B07WZ7TSKV
> >
> >
> [cabinetmagazine.org]
>
> > eptember_2021.php
> >
> > Lest there be misunderstanding: I do believe
> that
> > divine, miraculous healing can occur, perhaps
> > especially in countries where there just is
> little
> > or no access to advanced medicine,
> > hospitalization, etc. I have been impressed by
> > this two-volume work:
> >
> >
> [www.amazon.com]
>
> >
> stament-Accounts/dp/0801039525#:~:text=Keener%20de
>
> >
> votes%20several%20chapters%20to%20David%20Hume%27s
>
> >
> %20classic,his%20premise.%20Thus%2C%20his%20argume
>
> > nt%20was%20not%20valid.
> >
> > But that isn't the subject I mean to raise with
> > this comment. Rather: sociological
> consciousness
> > tends to generate the need for new solutions
> and
> > cures to problems it itself tends to produce.
> > Whether it gets them is another matter.
>
>
> Having now read some of this ludicrous screed, I
> have come to realize you're a religious nutbag.
> Forget I entered the conversation, dipshits.

Wow.

You seem to be a really poor fit for for the tenor of the discussions here.

[www.youtube.com]

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Answered his own question. The Oresteia trilogy, and Greek drama generally, of course, set the template for thematic development of these two states of consciousness as a source of conflict. The contrast between society, represented by the chorus, and the suffering individual (Clytemnestra) begins the first of the there plays, all of which concentrate on murder and revenge. Near the end of the third play, the Eumenides, Athena introduces the concept of a more equitable response to evil and social injustice. Litigation instead of Revenge, what a concept! Prior to this, Clytemnestra's spirit returns, after her murder by her son Orestes (egged on, in retaliation for the bathtub slaying of his father Agamemnon), to insist upon the fulfilment of her craving for blood from beyond the grave. Not the same thing as either the divine law of retribution imposed by the Erinyes (Furies), or the supposedly more civilized standard of legal restitution Athena brings. Are we not similarly past the point of no return, as Thomas Sowell has asserted? Additional examples from tragic drama or mythology, anyone?

jkh

Kipling Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Answered his own question. The Oresteia trilogy,
> and Greek drama generally, of course, set the
> template for thematic development of these two
> states of consciousness as a source of conflict.
> The contrast between society, represented by the
> chorus, and the suffering individual
> (Clytemnestra) begins the first of the there
> plays, all of which concentrate on murder and
> revenge. Near the end of the third play, the
> Eumenides, Athena introduces the concept of a
> more equitable response to evil and social
> injustice. Litigation instead of Revenge, what a
> concept! Prior to this, Clytemnestra's spirit
> returns, after her murder by her son Orestes
> (egged on, in retaliation for the bathtub slaying
> of his father Agamemnon), to insist upon the
> fulfilment of her craving for blood from beyond
> the grave. Not the same thing as either the divine
> law of retribution imposed by the Erinyes
> (Furies), or the supposedly more civilized
> standard of legal restitution Athena brings. Are
> we not similarly past the point of no return, as
> Thomas Sowell has asserted? Additional examples
> from tragic drama or mythology, anyone?

Excellent literary connection, Kipling. Thanks.

"Point of no return"...an interesting thought I've played around with the last few days...

I've tended to see history as cyclical, and beyond that, societal direction (societal trends)--at least for the last 100-150 years, aa a pendulum-like oscillation. This draws a strong intuitive parallel between between human social behavior and physics.

Both of these metaphors can lull one to sleep because they de-emphasize the possibility society ever exceeding a certain known boundary of group behavior. This is to say that the excesses are self-limiting: as society gradually senses an unacceptable extreme, it tends to move in the opposite direction.

There are two (at least) things wrong with this: it sees social behavior as a one dimensional line, with all behavior falling within a bounded range on a conceptual continuum; and it assumes that the oscillations are self-dampening.

Speaking to the second consideration, there exists in physics the disturbing phenomenon called mechanical resonance that occurs under some conditions, where, due to unforeseen factors, the amplitude of the oscillation exceeds its previous limit with each successive cycle. This results in an uncontrolled self-destruct.

The best metaphorical example I can think of is the 1940 Tacoma Narrows bridge, which collapsed in the same year it was built in moderate winds.

[www.youtube.com]

In short, it shook itself to pieces.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
--------------------------------------
>
> Speaking to the second consideration, there exists
> in physics the disturbing phenomenon called
> mechanical resonance that occurs under some
> conditions, where, due to unforeseen factors, the
> amplitude of the oscillation exceeds its previous
> limit with each successive cycle. This results in
> an uncontrolled self-destruct.
>
> The best metaphorical example I can think of is
> the 1940 Tacoma Narrows bridge, which collapsed in
> the same year it was built in moderate winds.
>
> [www.youtube.com]
>
> In short, it shook itself to pieces.
Substitute "spent" for "shook" maybe?

Kipling Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------
> >
> > Speaking to the second consideration, there
> exists
> > in physics the disturbing phenomenon called
> > mechanical resonance that occurs under some
> > conditions, where, due to unforeseen factors,
> the
> > amplitude of the oscillation exceeds its
> previous
> > limit with each successive cycle. This results
> in
> > an uncontrolled self-destruct.
> >
> > The best metaphorical example I can think of is
> > the 1940 Tacoma Narrows bridge, which collapsed
> in
> > the same year it was built in moderate winds.
> >
> > [www.youtube.com]
> >
> > In short, it shook itself to pieces.
> Substitute "spent" for "shook" maybe?

If we're speaking of kinetic energy, yes, a better fit.

But I look around and recall other divisive times from about the 60s, and I've never seen such a fast pendulum arc, nor of such magnitude, as what I see metaphorically now.

Hah! Maybe the previous president's pointlessly abrasive personality was the added impetus...

Who knows?

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~