I have an unread book by Aristotle called On Poetry and Style, stashed behind others. When younger I had an ambition to read Plato, but found I did not have interest and motivation enough for philosophy. Was more interested in the physical arts and sciences. There was not time enough for both. Philosophy, I felt, was too close to the subconscious and the spiritual, and I wanted to leave that for my intuition and instincts, instead of intellectualizing it. Also, I always had more respect for individuals creating something with their hands, ... than those walking around philosophizing, gesticulating and discussing with each other; they are a bit like politicians, which I don't have high regard for. So I quickly got rid of the Plato books I had bought. The only remaining one is the Aristotle book. I am sure Plato had good ideas, specifically about decently organized democracy (based on demands of basic knowledge and understanding from the citizens); but sadly, his ideas don't have influence on today's political system which is predominately mired in foreign money power and deceitful propaganda.

I have read a joint book called Apology for Poetry / Defense of Poetry, by Sidney and Shelley. It says something about poetic consciousness. I enjoyed it greatly.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Philosophy, I felt, was too close to the
> subconscious and the spiritual, and I wanted to
> leave that for my intuition and instincts, instead
> of intellectualizing it. ...
>

And for my common sense, based on what I know of the physical reality, science, and biology. Politics (ideology, and its more sublime source, philosophy) which is not based on physical reality, science, and biology, easily becomes an uncontrollable Monster.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 8 Sep 21 | 04:17AM by Knygatin.

Knygatin Wrote:

> I have read a joint book called Apology for Poetry
> / Defense of Poetry, by Sidney and Shelley. It
> says something about poetic consciousness. I
> enjoyed it greatly.


The Sidney essay in particular is something I'd like to turn to. Of English authors traditionally regarded highly, he is one of the ones I have most severely neglected, as it happens.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
>
> > I have read a joint book called Apology for Poetry
> > / Defense of Poetry, by Sidney and Shelley. It
> > says something about poetic consciousness. I
> > enjoyed it greatly.
>
>
> The Sidney essay in particular is something I'd
> like to turn to. Of English authors traditionally
> regarded highly, he is one of the ones I have most
> severely neglected, as it happens.

Their exact contents blur for me now, but I remember the essays were distinctly different from each other, and I believe I found Sidney's the best. A clear-minded Renaissance man, compared to the more emotionally guided Shelley.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dale Nelson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Knygatin Wrote:
> >
> > > I have read a joint book called Apology for
> Poetry
> > > / Defense of Poetry, by Sidney and Shelley.
> It
> > > says something about poetic consciousness. I
> > > enjoyed it greatly.
> >
> >
> > The Sidney essay in particular is something I'd
> > like to turn to. Of English authors
> traditionally
> > regarded highly, he is one of the ones I have
> most
> > severely neglected, as it happens.
>
> Their exact contents blur for me now, but I
> remember the essays were distinctly different from
> each other, and I believe I found Sidney's the
> best. A clear-minded Renaissance man, compared to
> the more emotionally guided Shelley.

Sociological consciousness vs poetic consciousness?

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Their exact contents blur for me now, but I
> > remember the essays were distinctly different from
> > each other, and I believe I found Sidney's the
> > best. A clear-minded Renaissance man, compared to
> > the more emotionally guided Shelley.
>
> Sociological consciousness vs poetic
> consciousness?

To a degree, I assume.

Are you suggesting that Shelley was not a true poet? :D

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Knygatin Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > >
> > > Their exact contents blur for me now, but I
> > > remember the essays were distinctly different
> from
> > > each other, and I believe I found Sidney's
> the
> > > best. A clear-minded Renaissance man, compared
> to
> > > the more emotionally guided Shelley.
> >
> > Sociological consciousness vs poetic
> > consciousness?
>
> To a degree, I assume.
>
> Are you suggesting that Shelley was not a true
> poet? :D

HEAVENS NO!!!

;^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Seeing Shelley's name has had me thinking about the British Romantics a little: conventionally, Blake, Coleridge, Wordsworth, Shelley, Byron, Keats.

Perhaps Coleridge and Keats would have the most to offer readers specifically looking for the "weird." Neither poet wrote a lots of poems in that vein as far as I know, but within it wrote authentic masterpieces. There might be a Coleridge thread here, but I don't remember one on Keats, the author of "La Belle Dame Sans Merci," "Lamia," &c.

Dale, do you think Shelley was a true poet? Or perhaps a sociologically conscious impostor? :)

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> >
> > To a degree, I assume.
> >
> > Are you suggesting that Shelley was not a true
> > poet? :D
>
> HEAVENS NO!!!
>
> ;^)

You are a wise man. :D Much wiser than me, getting myself into all sorts of trouble. :)

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dale, do you think Shelley was a true poet? Or
> perhaps a sociologically conscious impostor? :)


Certainly Shelley was a true poet -- though, of the Famous Five whom I've read (of major English Romantic poets) he was the one I liked least. Perhaps we here at ED should try some Shelley, maybe The Witch of Atlas.

A true poet.

For an example of verses permeated by sociological consciousness, read this, from the current American president's inauguration, or at least read enough to get the flavor. The author is Amanda Gorman.

THE HILL WE CLIMB

When day comes we ask ourselves,
‘where can we find light in this never-ending shade,’
the loss we carry,
a sea we must wade?
We’ve braved the belly of the beast.
We’ve learned that quiet isn’t always peace,
and the norms and notions
of what just is
isn’t always just-ice.
And yet the dawn is ours
before we knew it,
somehow we do it.
Somehow we’ve weathered and witnessed
a nation that isn’t broken
but simply unfinished.
We, the successors of a country and a time
where a skinny Black girl
descended from slaves and raised by a single mother
can dream of becoming president
only to find herself reciting for one.
And yes, we are far from polished,
far from pristine,
but that doesn’t mean we are
striving to form a union that is perfect.
We are striving to forge a union with purpose,
to compose a country committed to all cultures, colors, characters, and
conditions of man.
And so we lift our gazes not to what stands between us
but what stands before us.
We close the divide because we know, to put our future first,
we must first put our differences aside.
We lay down our arms
so we can reach out our arms
to one another.
We seek harm to none and harmony for all.
Let the globe, if nothing else, say this is true:
That even as we grieved, we grew;
that even as we hurt, we hoped;
that even as we tired, we tried;
that we’ll forever be tied together, victorious,
not because we will never again know defeat
but because we will never again sow division.
Scripture tells us to envision
that everyone shall sit under their own vine and fig tree
and no one shall make them afraid.
If we’re to live up to our own time
then victory won’t lie in the blade
but in all the bridges we’ve made.
That is the promise to glade,
the hill we climb
if only we dare it,
because being American is more than a pride we inherit —
it’s the past we step into
and how we repair it.
We’ve seen a force that would shatter our nation
rather than share it
would destroy our country if it meant delaying democracy.
And this effort very nearly succeeded.
But while democracy can be periodically delayed,
it can never be permanently defeated.
In this truth,
in this faith we trust,
for while we have our eyes on the future,
history has its eyes on us.
This is the era of just redemption
we feared at its inception.
We did not feel prepared to be the heirs
of such a terrifying hour
but within it we found the power
to author a new chapter,
to offer hope and laughter to ourselves.
So while once we asked,
‘how could we possibly prevail over catastrophe,’
now we assert,
‘how could catastrophe possibly prevail over us?’
We will not march back to what was
but move to what shall be:
a country that is bruised but whole,
benevolent but bold,
fierce, and free.
We will not be turned around
or interrupted by intimidation
because we know our inaction and inertia
will be the inheritance of the next generation.
Our blunders become their burdens.
But one thing is certain:
If we merge mercy with might,
and might with right,
then love becomes our legacy
and change our children’s birthright.
So let us leave behind a country
better than the one we were left with.
Every breath from my bronze-pounded chest,
we will raise this wounded world into a wondrous one.
We will rise from the gold-limned hills of the west,
we will rise from the windswept northeast
where our forefathers first realized revolution,
we will rise from the lake-rimmed cities of the midwestern states,
we will rise from the sunbaked south.
We will rebuild, reconcile, and recover
in every known nook of our nation and
every corner called our country,
our people diverse and beautiful will emerge,
battered and beautiful.
When day comes we step out of the shade,
aflame and unafraid.
The new dawn blooms as we free it.
For there is always light,
if only we’re brave enough to see it,
if only we’re brave enough to be it.

Source: [news.harvard.edu]

The "Famous Five" English Romantics whom I've read are Blake, Wordsworth, Coleridge, Keats, and Shelley. Of the five, only Shelley is not one of my favorite authors.

Dale Nelson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Dale, do you think Shelley was a true poet? Or
> > perhaps a sociologically conscious impostor? :)
>
>
> Certainly Shelley was a true poet -- though, of
> the Famous Five whom I've read (of major English
> Romantic poets) he was the one I liked least.
> Perhaps we here at ED should try some Shelley,
> maybe The Witch of Atlas.
>
> A true poet.
>
> For an example of verses permeated by sociological
> consciousness, read this, from the current
> American president's inauguration, or at least
> read enough to get the flavor. The author is
> Amanda Gorman.
>
> THE HILL WE CLIMB
>
> When day comes we ask ourselves,
> ‘where can we find light in this never-ending
> shade,’
> the loss we carry,
> a sea we must wade?
> We’ve braved the belly of the beast.
> We’ve learned that quiet isn’t always peace,
> and the norms and notions
> of what just is
> isn’t always just-ice.
> And yet the dawn is ours
> before we knew it,
> somehow we do it.
> Somehow we’ve weathered and witnessed
> a nation that isn’t broken
> but simply unfinished.
> We, the successors of a country and a time
> where a skinny Black girl
> descended from slaves and raised by a single
> mother
> can dream of becoming president
> only to find herself reciting for one.
> And yes, we are far from polished,
> far from pristine,
> but that doesn’t mean we are
> striving to form a union that is perfect.
> We are striving to forge a union with purpose,
> to compose a country committed to all cultures,
> colors, characters, and
> conditions of man.
> And so we lift our gazes not to what stands
> between us
> but what stands before us.
> We close the divide because we know, to put our
> future first,
> we must first put our differences aside.
> We lay down our arms
> so we can reach out our arms
> to one another.
> We seek harm to none and harmony for all.
> Let the globe, if nothing else, say this is true:
> That even as we grieved, we grew;
> that even as we hurt, we hoped;
> that even as we tired, we tried;
> that we’ll forever be tied together,
> victorious,
> not because we will never again know defeat
> but because we will never again sow division.
> Scripture tells us to envision
> that everyone shall sit under their own vine and
> fig tree
> and no one shall make them afraid.
> If we’re to live up to our own time
> then victory won’t lie in the blade
> but in all the bridges we’ve made.
> That is the promise to glade,
> the hill we climb
> if only we dare it,
> because being American is more than a pride we
> inherit —
> it’s the past we step into
> and how we repair it.
> We’ve seen a force that would shatter our
> nation
> rather than share it
> would destroy our country if it meant delaying
> democracy.
> And this effort very nearly succeeded.
> But while democracy can be periodically delayed,
> it can never be permanently defeated.
> In this truth,
> in this faith we trust,
> for while we have our eyes on the future,
> history has its eyes on us.
> This is the era of just redemption
> we feared at its inception.
> We did not feel prepared to be the heirs
> of such a terrifying hour
> but within it we found the power
> to author a new chapter,
> to offer hope and laughter to ourselves.
> So while once we asked,
> ‘how could we possibly prevail over
> catastrophe,’
> now we assert,
> ‘how could catastrophe possibly prevail over
> us?’
> We will not march back to what was
> but move to what shall be:
> a country that is bruised but whole,
> benevolent but bold,
> fierce, and free.
> We will not be turned around
> or interrupted by intimidation
> because we know our inaction and inertia
> will be the inheritance of the next generation.
> Our blunders become their burdens.
> But one thing is certain:
> If we merge mercy with might,
> and might with right,
> then love becomes our legacy
> and change our children’s birthright.
> So let us leave behind a country
> better than the one we were left with.
> Every breath from my bronze-pounded chest,
> we will raise this wounded world into a wondrous
> one.
> We will rise from the gold-limned hills of the
> west,
> we will rise from the windswept northeast
> where our forefathers first realized revolution,
> we will rise from the lake-rimmed cities of the
> midwestern states,
> we will rise from the sunbaked south.
> We will rebuild, reconcile, and recover
> in every known nook of our nation and
> every corner called our country,
> our people diverse and beautiful will emerge,
> battered and beautiful.
> When day comes we step out of the shade,
> aflame and unafraid.
> The new dawn blooms as we free it.
> For there is always light,
> if only we’re brave enough to see it,
> if only we’re brave enough to be it.
>
> Source:
> [news.harvard.edu]
> nda-gormans-inauguration-poem-the-hill-we-climb/

Does it occur to others that we're living in an era that places great moral value--perhaps the greatest--on publicly expressed dissatisfaction, and seeking and confronting the cause of it?

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Seeking the "root causes"?

Beyond satire:

[www.sfexaminer.com]

Lovely solution...

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~