By this I mean that you may have heard that they were worthwhile, and may have seriously tried--perhaps repeatedly--but found yourself running out of steam before really *connecting* with their works.

I will simultaneously prime the ol' discussion pump, and invite stoning, by offering up my own initial list:

Merritt
Asimov
Clark
MacDonald
Machen
R. E. Howard

The list could be longer.

As in the P. T. Andersen film, "There Will Be Blood"...

;^)

--Sawfish

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"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
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Frank Herbert and A.E. Coppard. Bored me utterly.

jkh

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I will simultaneously prime the ol' discussion
> pump, and invite stoning, by offering up my own
> initial list:
>
> Merritt
> Asimov
> Clark
> MacDonald
> Machen
> R. E. Howard

I can connect with most of those on at least some level. Except maybe Asimov. I have not tried Clark. Many (but perhaps not all) of MacDonald's works are difficult to connect to, but I do get something out of them.

On my list are:
- Ursula K Le Guin
- Michael Moorcock
- Neil Gaiman
- Terry Pratchett
- Gene Wolfe
- Fritz Lieber
- Any modern award winner (THE POPPY WAR by Kuang is overdue from the library and goes back soon unfinished).

Algernon Blackwood. I find some of his early, more conventional, stories okay. But the more original he gets the more he loses me.

I assume you mean Clarke. Arthur C. Clarke. He has a unique writing style, if it can be called style. He builds upon his scientific insights, rationally achieving an effective sense of vast perspectives and the cosmic weird. Foremost I can recommend his novels Rendezvous with Rama, The City and the Stars, and Childhood's End.

This is very interesting.

Of course it's mainly subjective--there may be substantive technical reasons why a given writer is difficult to connect with, but mostly just a receptivity, or lack of, to a given style.

Too, theme can make it hard for someone to connect with a given writer. For me, a great example is Howard. What he seems to me to be doing is very similar to what Nietzsche was doing, which is to say they both recognize a very basic, and by today's standards, brutal, reality that's hardwired into the human animal. This is simply a recognition of the existence of the alpha male, and his place in the evolution of human social organization.

Howard goes on to glorify this, mythologize it, and Nietzsche--florid stylist that he is--come off as being an apologist, whereas to me, this phenomenon (male drive to power) is simply like being an omnivore--it just *is*, so what? It (male aggression, not being an omnivore...;^) ) may evolve away from having any reproductive value--in fact it sure looks like it's in the process--and will become something like the appendix.

So on this reason, alone, Howard is out, for me.

Let's see. Clarke (with a "e", thanks, Knygatin!) seems to me sterile. I think his attempts to actually offer futuristic situation as supported as an extension of currently understood scientific principles is quite good, but he just can't get me to *care*, one way or the other.

I don't know about Asimov; there is no *snap*. Sometimes the idea he explores is quite compelling: I really liked Nightfall as a kid. Just like Clarke's The Star, which is loaded up with irony.

Let's see... Le Guin feels to me like Dunsany, and Moorcock felt like Howard. We already know how I feel about Howard, and to me Dunsany is best when writing light humor, and from the little I could get out of the Le Guin I read, there's no humor there, so...

Frank Herbert, yeah! I tried and tried with his Dune series,and just could not connect, whatsoever, although I *really* liked David Lynch's film, even if *he* didn't.

Lieber always felt like a lightweight--his cheerful buddy-movie of a series about those two guys was mostly good for male adolescents, I think.

I could like some of Bradbury's stuff--Martian Chronicles, especially, but not a lot else. Too, Ballard's Vermilion Sands establishes a mood of profound modern decadence that is extremely effective, but beyond that, not much else to like, especially.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Too, theme can make it hard for someone to connect
> with a given writer. For me, a great example is
> Howard. What he seems to me to be doing is very
> similar to what Nietzsche was doing, which is to
> say they both recognize a very basic, and by
> today's standards, brutal, reality that's
> hardwired into the human animal. This is simply a
> recognition of the existence of the alpha male,
> and his place in the evolution of human social
> organization.
>
> Howard goes on to glorify this, mythologize it,
> and Nietzsche--florid stylist that he is--come off
> as being an apologist, whereas to me, this
> phenomenon (male drive to power) is simply like
> being an omnivore--it just *is*, so what? It (male
> aggression, not being an omnivore...;^) ) may
> evolve away from having any reproductive value--in
> fact it sure looks like it's in the process--and
> will become something like the appendix.
>
> So on this reason, alone, Howard is out, for me.

I guess this is primarily a description of the CONAN stories, and there is some truth to it, though I'm not sure it is a 100% fair description even of them, or at least not of all of them. There are a number of stories in which Conan (I guess mainly an older Conan) shows signs of having a conscience and some level of humility.

Outside of the Conan stories, Solomon Kane may have many of the aspects of an alpha male in terms of physique and ability, but I'm not at all sure it can be said that his stories are about the "alpha male drive to power". It can perhaps be said that "The Worms of the Earth" is about the alpha male drive to power, but I think it can hardly be said that it glorifies it. It seemed to me more like a cautionary tale. Many of Howard's tales are horror tales in which any alpha male characteristics of the protagonist either take a back seat or are entirely absent. "The Black Stone" is a decent effort at Lovecraftian horror.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 26 Apr 21 | 10:41AM by Platypus.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Too, theme can make it hard for someone to
> connect
> > with a given writer. For me, a great example is
> > Howard. What he seems to me to be doing is very
> > similar to what Nietzsche was doing, which is
> to
> > say they both recognize a very basic, and by
> > today's standards, brutal, reality that's
> > hardwired into the human animal. This is simply
> a
> > recognition of the existence of the alpha male,
> > and his place in the evolution of human social
> > organization.
> >
> > Howard goes on to glorify this, mythologize it,
> > and Nietzsche--florid stylist that he is--come
> off
> > as being an apologist, whereas to me, this
> > phenomenon (male drive to power) is simply like
> > being an omnivore--it just *is*, so what? It
> (male
> > aggression, not being an omnivore...;^) ) may
> > evolve away from having any reproductive
> value--in
> > fact it sure looks like it's in the
> process--and
> > will become something like the appendix.
> >
> > So on this reason, alone, Howard is out, for
> me.
>
> I guess this is primarily a description of the
> CONAN stories, and there is some truth to it,
> though I'm not sure it is a 100% fair description
> even of them, or at least not of all of them.
>
> Outside of the Conan stories, Solomon Kane may
> have many of the aspects of an alpha male in terms
> of physique and ability, but I'm not at all sure
> it can be said that his stories are about the
> "alpha male drive to power". It can perhaps be
> said that "The Worms of the Earth" is about the
> alpha male drive to power, but I think it can
> hardly be said that it glorifies it. It seemed to
> me more like a cautionary tale. Many of Howard's
> tales are horror tales in which any alpha male
> characteristics of the protagonist either take a
> back seat or are entirely absent. "The Black
> Stone" is a decent effort at Lovecraftian horror.

Yes, you are right that I mainly was exposed to the Conan stuff, and to the Kull and Bran Mak Morn. I will give some of the other stuff a try again. I don't have any negative impressions of his style of expression, just the theme.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Platypus, I just clicked on a scene where Conan throws a knife to kill a female tribe member who was the lover of the tribe's enemy, a pirate. They are going to burn her to death, and pity takes hold.

I can recall a sort speech by a tribal leader, about how this was to teach everyone a lesson. Now here's an impression that sticks with me: the monolog was stilted. I'm now thinking that a lot of Howard's expressive style was somewhat stilted. By stilted, I mean that he expressed the story using a tone a lot ike a formal oral storyteller--which is valid in the era, but awfully tough on the (mind's) ear, after a while.

Is this a fair assessment? I can't remember all that well.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I will prime the ol' discussion
> pump, and invite stoning,
>
> As in the P. T. Andersen film, "There Will Be
> Blood"...
>
> > > Let's see. Clarke (with a "e", thanks, Knygatin!) seems to me sterile.


Ya Callin' me sterile?! Huh?! HUH?!! ; [ ]

HAH!!!

:^)

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Platypus, I just clicked on a scene where Conan
> throws a knife to kill a female tribe member who
> was the lover of the tribe's enemy, a pirate. They
> are going to burn her to death, and pity takes
> hold.

I actually don't recall that scene. Generally, I recall that, particularly in certain stories where Conan is a King of Aquilonia, he is less of an alpha male force of nature, and more of a human being, with a sense of responsibility to his subjects. For instance (IIRC), "The Phoenix on the Sword".

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ballard's Vermilion Sands establishes a mood of
> profound modern decadence that is extremely
> effective,

Thanks, Sawfish. Never read Ballard. But this one sounds a little bit like my cup of tea. I just downloaded it a moment ago on audiobook from Youtube.

Platypus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Platypus, I just clicked on a scene where Conan
> > throws a knife to kill a female tribe member
> who
> > was the lover of the tribe's enemy, a pirate.
> They
> > are going to burn her to death, and pity takes
> > hold.
>
> I actually don't recall that scene. Generally, I
> recall that, particularly in certain stories where
> Conan is a King of Aquilonia, he is less of an
> alpha male force of nature, and more of a human
> being, with a sense of responsibility to his
> subjects. For instance (IIRC), "The Phoenix on
> the Sword".


I haven't enjoyed Conan since high school, but I always found the stories in which he was king the most enjoyable. His loathing of royal duties, high culture, and sedentary existence, combined with his reluctant yet fiery devotion to responsibilities, makes him a slightly more introspective and complex character than usual. Makes me think of Gilgamesh from that famous epic.

I should re-read Howard's Solomon Kane stories and see how they hold up. The idea of a puritan traveling the world to eradicate sin, only to doubt the existence of his God as he encounters increasingly vile and strange things, has potential. But I don't remember the stories very well, so it's possible they're just a lot of hacking and slashing and brooding! Howard wrote some convincing wild men, and I think the pacing in his horror stories was gripping, but he counts as one of those authors who don't really "click" with me.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Ballard's Vermilion Sands establishes a mood of
> > profound modern decadence that is extremely
> > effective,
>
> Thanks, Sawfish. Never read Ballard. But this one
> sounds a little bit like my cup of tea. I just
> downloaded it a moment ago on audiobook from
> Youtube.

I hope you like it! Very strange vibe.

If/when you do read it, let us know what you think.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~