Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In my humble opinion, Vance’s best monster is
> King Kragen from The Blue World.
>
> And if it’s craaazy monsters you want, you could
> do a lot worse than checking out Michael Shea’s
> fantasy books, such as Nifft the Lean and In Yana,
> the Touch of Undying.

Yes, The Blue World is great! King Kragen is definitely up there among his very best monsters.

Nifft the Lean was certainly impressive, very bizarre and rich. I have not read In Yana, the Touch of Undying, ... yet! My favorite by Shea must be the novelette Fat Face. A masterpiece! And "Polyphemus" is just incredible!

That being said, I can also enjoy supernatural tales without monsters. What bores me to death is mundane events, descriptions of worldly proceedings; therefore I can't read crime fiction, or melodrama.

I have not read Lovecraft in a very very long time, until today, when I re-read his little talked about story "The Tomb". No monsters in that one. Everything Lovecraft writes is profoundly existential, every sentence is filled with important meaning. Therefore he is tremendously enjoyable. In fact, I get so exited by reading him, that I cannot contain my feelings, but have to rise up and walk about regularly to assimilate the breathtaking perspectives. A great story, and the ending completely unhinged me; I nearly cried.

On the subject of monsters, I always thought that one of CAS' greatest monsters was that nameless entity from "The Dweller in the Gulf." The story might not be so memorable, but the monster is certainly one of his most alien, menacing, mysterious, intense, and disturbingly graceful in form and function.

Lovecraft seemed impressed as well. In a letter to CAS he congratulated him on the story and emphasized his profound reaction to the creature, or "IT!!" as he called it!

Sometimes I wonder why people would read fantasy, if they won't allow themselves to drift away into dreaming. When they are so rational, reasonable, and common-sensible, so serious, that they refuse to believe in the fantasy. If they read fantasy merely as shallow entertainment, and just as well would have read any other book, like a crime novel. I find it sad, and pity them for not understanding that fantasy is more real than any social realism or melodrama. The mundane world and its baseness is not even worth laying much consideration by.

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> On the subject of monsters, I always thought that
> one of CAS' greatest monsters was that nameless
> entity from "The Dweller in the Gulf." The story
> might not be so memorable, but the monster is
> certainly one of his most alien, menacing,
> mysterious, intense, and disturbingly graceful in
> form and function.
>

It was a while ago I read "The Dweller in the Gulf". I shall have to re-read it!

CAS himself considered "The Dark Eidolon" to be one of his very best, "my greatest monster to date, a devil of a story", (if I remember correctly). And he thought it could have been a terrific screen spectacle if Universal Pictures chose to take it on. It certainly would have been an interesting cavalcade of monsters if following the text thoroughly.

I’ve often wondered at the immense popularity of Game of Thrones, which is unspeakably unimaginative...

There’s this wall, called the Wall, beyond which lies an area called Beyond the Wall. It is protected by a watch, called the Night’s Watch. Beyond the Wall live wild, free folk, called Wildlings (or Free Folk). This very cold part of the world is also inhabited by various animals, including Snow Bears, Direwolves and Mammoths. There are also Giants, and mention is made of a legendary beast called the Ice Dragon.

In addition to seven kingdoms called -- wait for it! -- the Seven Kingdoms, there’s also the stunningly imaginatively named Castle Black, a Shadow Tower, a Nightfort and a Haunted Forest.

Who? Reads? This? Generic? Shit?

(Answer: millions of people.)

Compare this to the opening sentences of Michael Shea’s In Yana, the Touch of Undying:

Quote:

“Will you take something with your wine?” the innkeeper asked with feigned offhandedness. Bramt Hex had been frequenting the inn for some weeks. He was always resolved to order wine alone, but the keep knew he could, with the slightest nudge, be stimulated to order a large meal as well.
“Yes, in fact,” Bramt Hex replied promptly, “since you suggest it. A salad of spindlewort. The broasted homunculus as well, followed immediately by a chilled crab tart.”
“The domestic or the wild homunculus?”
“The wild, of course.”
“We cannot give it to you, sir. The trappers bring none in. The vampires have lately increased in the hills.”
“Do they feed on homunculi?” Hex asked with surprise.
The innkeeper shook his head: “Trappers.”
“Of course. Well, I’ll take the sausage then instead of ’munk.”
“Thank you, sir.”

Here we are given a thumbnail sketch of an interestingly different world, including an economy, an ecosystem, character motivation, an unusual name and some fascinating other words. And readers will be even more surprised when they find out what a “vampire” is like in this world:

Quote:

Like most of his kind, he stood under five feet high, and wore ragged trousers of human skin which were supported by a single greasy shoulder strap that crossed his narrow, hairless chest diagonally. He had the typical, unimpressive face: a receding chin with an underslung, flabby-lipped mouth, a ratty snout of a nose and little dull eyes. His feet, bare, were deeply arched, with finger-long toes, and grasped the ground with handlike prehensility.

That’s absolutely nothing like the cloak-wearing Eastern-European nobleman I bet you were picturing!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 26 Jun 21 | 10:24PM by Avoosl Wuthoqquan.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hespire Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > On the subject of monsters, I always thought
> that
> > one of CAS' greatest monsters was that nameless
> > entity from "The Dweller in the Gulf." The
> story
> > might not be so memorable, but the monster is
> > certainly one of his most alien, menacing,
> > mysterious, intense, and disturbingly graceful
> in
> > form and function.
> >
>
> It was a while ago I read "The Dweller in the
> Gulf". I shall have to re-read it!


I'm planning the same thing. It's less of a story and more of an atmospheric exploration of a dark, ominous, subterranean world. This is probably why Lovecraft praised it, as some parts of it remind me of his work, which itself is an excellent example of fantasy as something to utterly immerse your senses in.


> CAS himself considered "The Dark Eidolon" to be
> one of his very best, "my greatest monster to
> date, a devil of a story", (if I remember
> correctly). And he thought it could have been a
> terrific screen spectacle if Universal Pictures
> chose to take it on. It certainly would have been
> an interesting cavalcade of monsters if following
> the text thoroughly.


The jinns and demons in that story were truly strange. CAS took the weird immensity of Hell as portrayed in Vathek and made it even more demonic!

Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I’ve often wondered at the immense popularity of
> Game of Thrones, which is unspeakably
> unimaginative...
>
> There’s this wall, called the Wall, beyond which
> lies an area called Beyond the Wall. It is
> protected by a watch, called the Night’s Watch.
> Beyond the Wall live wild, free folk, called
> Wildlings (or Free Folk). This very cold part of
> the world is also inhabited by various animals,
> including Snow Bears, Direwolves and Mammoths.
> There are also Giants, and mention is made of a
> legendary beast called the Ice Dragon.
>
> In addition to seven kingdoms called -- wait for
> it! -- the Seven Kingdoms, there’s also the
> stunningly imaginatively named Castle Black, a
> Shadow Tower, a Nightfort and a Haunted Forest.
>
> Who? Reads? This? Generic? Shit?
>
> (Answer: millions of people.)


I've never seen Game of Thrones, and I don't feel any strong need for it, but it strikes me as unreal that a series with so many bland ideas, which actual European myths and romances would scoff at, could be hailed so much. Maybe it's just that well-written, which I'm willing to consider, though friends insist otherwise.


> Compare this to the opening sentences of Michael
> Shea’s In Yana, the Touch of Undying:
>
> “Will you take something with your wine?” the
> innkeeper asked with feigned offhandedness. Bramt
> Hex had been frequenting the inn for some weeks.
> He was always resolved to order wine alone, but
> the keep knew he could, with the slightest nudge,
> be stimulated to order a large meal as well.
> “Yes, in fact,” Bramt Hex replied promptly,
> “since you suggest it. A salad of spindlewort.
> The broasted homunculus as well, followed
> immediately by a chilled crab tart.”
> “The domestic or the wild homunculus?”
> “The wild, of course.”
> “We cannot give it to you, sir. The trappers
> bring none in. The vampires have lately increased
> in the hills.”
> “Do they feed on homunculi?” Hex asked with
> surprise.
> The innkeeper shook his head: “Trappers.”
> “Of course. Well, I’ll take the sausage then
> instead of ’munk.”
> “Thank you, sir.”
>
> Here we are given a thumbnail sketch of an
> interestingly different world, including an
> economy, an ecosystem, character motivation, an
> unusual name and some fascinating other words. And
> readers will be even more surprised when they find
> out what a “vampire” is like in this world:


I'm rather packed with reading material at the moment, but this one paragraph tells me more than enough about this bizarre setting, and it satisfies me more than the usual dungeons and dragons! I might have to give it a try some day!

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > CAS himself considered "The Dark Eidolon" to be
> > one of his very best, "my greatest monster to
> > date, a devil of a story", (if I remember
> > correctly). And he thought it could have been a
> > terrific screen spectacle if Universal Pictures
> > chose to take it on. It certainly would have been
> > an interesting cavalcade of monsters if following
> > the text thoroughly.
>
>
> The jinns and demons in that story were truly
> strange. CAS took the weird immensity of Hell as
> portrayed in Vathek and made it even more demonic!

Yep, he most certainly did!

Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I’ve often wondered at the immense popularity of
> Game of Thrones, which is unspeakably
> unimaginative...
>
> There’s this wall, called the Wall, beyond which
> lies an area called Beyond the Wall. It is
> protected by a watch, called the Night’s Watch.
> Beyond the Wall live wild, free folk, called
> Wildlings (or Free Folk). This very cold part of
> the world is also inhabited by various animals,
> including Snow Bears, Direwolves and Mammoths.
> There are also Giants, and mention is made of a
> legendary beast called the Ice Dragon.
>
> In addition to seven kingdoms called -- wait for
> it! -- the Seven Kingdoms, there’s also the
> stunningly imaginatively named Castle Black, a
> Shadow Tower, a Nightfort and a Haunted Forest.
>
> Who? Reads? This? Generic? Shit?
>
> (Answer: millions of people.)
>
> Compare this to the opening sentences of Michael
> Shea’s In Yana, the Touch of Undying:
>

I have never read (it is a book too?) or watched Game of Thrones (despite of its massive publicity). Nor have I ever read or watched or played War of Warcraft (or whatever its name is ... Warring War of Warcraft?).

I trust you on In Yana, the Touch of Undying, but will not read those quotes. Because I am going to read the whole book soon ...

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I've never seen Game of Thrones, and I don't feel
> any strong need for it, but it strikes me as
> unreal that a series with so many bland ideas,
> which actual European myths and romances would
> scoff at, could be hailed so much. Maybe it's just
> that well-written, which I'm willing to consider,
> though friends insist otherwise.
>
>

My guess would be sexual romance and other platitudes. Always sells well to the masses.

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I’ve often wondered at the immense popularity
> of
> > Game of Thrones, which is unspeakably
> > unimaginative...
> >
> > There’s this wall, called the Wall, beyond
> which
> > lies an area called Beyond the Wall. It is
> > protected by a watch, called the Night’s
> Watch.
> > Beyond the Wall live wild, free folk, called
> > Wildlings (or Free Folk). This very cold part
> of
> > the world is also inhabited by various animals,
> > including Snow Bears, Direwolves and Mammoths.
> > There are also Giants, and mention is made of a
> > legendary beast called the Ice Dragon.
> >
> > In addition to seven kingdoms called -- wait
> for
> > it! -- the Seven Kingdoms, there’s also the
> > stunningly imaginatively named Castle Black, a
> > Shadow Tower, a Nightfort and a Haunted Forest.
> >
> > Who? Reads? This? Generic? Shit?
> >
> > (Answer: millions of people.)
>
>
> I've never seen Game of Thrones, and I don't feel
> any strong need for it, but it strikes me as
> unreal that a series with so many bland ideas,
> which actual European myths and romances would
> scoff at, could be hailed so much. Maybe it's just
> that well-written, which I'm willing to consider,
> though friends insist otherwise.

It is a soft core porn costume melodrama with a few decent, if vastly overdrawn, characters.

Many of the women, alone, were well worth watching for multiple episodes.

But then, what would Eyes Wide Shut be without the ritual scene inside the manor house?

>
>
> > Compare this to the opening sentences of
> Michael
> > Shea’s In Yana, the Touch of Undying:
> >
> > “Will you take something with your wine?”
> the
> > innkeeper asked with feigned offhandedness.
> Bramt
> > Hex had been frequenting the inn for some
> weeks.
> > He was always resolved to order wine alone, but
> > the keep knew he could, with the slightest
> nudge,
> > be stimulated to order a large meal as well.
> > “Yes, in fact,” Bramt Hex replied promptly,
> > “since you suggest it. A salad of
> spindlewort.
> > The broasted homunculus as well, followed
> > immediately by a chilled crab tart.”
> > “The domestic or the wild homunculus?”
> > “The wild, of course.”
> > “We cannot give it to you, sir. The trappers
> > bring none in. The vampires have lately
> increased
> > in the hills.”
> > “Do they feed on homunculi?” Hex asked with
> > surprise.
> > The innkeeper shook his head: “Trappers.”
> > “Of course. Well, I’ll take the sausage
> then
> > instead of ’munk.”
> > “Thank you, sir.”
> >
> > Here we are given a thumbnail sketch of an
> > interestingly different world, including an
> > economy, an ecosystem, character motivation, an
> > unusual name and some fascinating other words.
> And
> > readers will be even more surprised when they
> find
> > out what a “vampire” is like in this world:
>
>
> I'm rather packed with reading material at the
> moment, but this one paragraph tells me more than
> enough about this bizarre setting, and it
> satisfies me more than the usual dungeons and
> dragons! I might have to give it a try some day!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is a soft core porn costume melodrama with a
> few decent, if vastly overdrawn, characters.
>
> Many of the women, alone, were well worth watching
> for multiple episodes.
>
> But then, what would Eyes Wide Shut be without the
> ritual scene inside the manor house?


The porn and melodrama explain it all to me. Those and violence are often all you need for an audience these days. Then again, I suppose Shakespeare might have filled a similar niche in his time. Minus the women.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 27 Jun 21 | 12:23PM by Hespire.

Hespire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've never seen Game of Thrones, and I don't feel
> any strong need for it,

Don’t worry, there really isn’t any.

> but it strikes me as
> unreal that a series with so many bland ideas,
> which actual European myths and romances would
> scoff at, could be hailed so much. Maybe it's just
> that well-written, which I'm willing to consider,
> though friends insist otherwise.

Well, the people that I know who went bananas over it a couple of years ago were going on about the characters, and especially how the show’s writers would kill off sympathetic ones without batting an eyelid. Nobody ever mentioned the fantasy elements. Or the naked stuff (then again, these were Europeans -- they tend to be less hung up on nudity than Americans).

Also, I suspect that what is ‘blandness’ to you and me is easily mistaken for ‘profundity’ by others. A bit like how lovesick teenagers write terrible poems that do not contain any specifics, but plenty of abstract nouns. Or ‘poets’ who get to read their work at US presidential inaugurations, come to think of it -- but let’s not go there.

(O my god this is shitty.)

> I'm rather packed with reading material at the
> moment, but this one paragraph tells me more than
> enough about this bizarre setting, and it
> satisfies me more than the usual dungeons and
> dragons! I might have to give it a try some day!

Michael Shea is so good IMHO, that I would recommend giving him precedence over the rest of your to-read list (which no doubt, like mine, is immense) at least for a book or two.

> The porn and melodrama explain it all to me. Those
> and violence are often all you need for an
> audience these days. Then again, I suppose
> Shakespeare might have filled a similar niche in
> his time. Minus the women.

I was about to mention Titus Andronicus, which is indeed full of grotesqueries and was one of Shakespeare’s earlier works, just so I could comment that he’d started as a bit of a hack, but then really grew as an artist. But then I looked up the order in which it is assumed he wrote his plays and discovered that when he most likely wrote TA, he already had The Taming of the Shrew and Richard III under his belt. Whew!

For Elizabethan stage sex and violence, John Ford and John Webster are better options. There’s also The Revenger’s Tragedy, formerly attributed to Cyril Tourneur, but nowadays more widely thought to be by Thomas Middleton (“Not that it matters,” as Morla the Ancient would say).